I admit it. I’m a frequent visitor to advertising websites. Like the one you’re reading now. Then there’s Agencyspy, Adage, Adweek, Stuart Elliott’s New York Times ad column (yes, it’s still relevant) and George Parker’s rant-filled Adscam. I make the rounds several times a day. This also means I read the growing comment sections that are now ubiquitous among the blogs and news sites. Occasionally, I’ll leave a comment, hoping to add to the conversation. Besides, commenting is fun. Except lately, the comments have become one big bitter party. Everyone is snippy, curt and sometimes downright insulting. What up with that?
Ad people, creatives especially, are known to be sharp and witty. It’s just in their character. Lately, sharp is an understatement on the ad blogs. The knives are out, and they’re flying. According to a lot of commenters, every ad campaign sucks and has been done before. Every agency win is undeserved. Everyone promoted is an idiot. Every creative is a hack. Every big agency is a dinosaur. Every award-winning agency is a sweatshop. This business is going to hell. Bring back the old days. Your book sucks. Anonymous commenters are cowards. Traditional is dead – you all deserve to be unemployed. Digital is overrated – go build an iPhone app and go play with yourself. Fuck you. Fuck you back. And there’s one adweek commenter who repeats, again and again, to “STOP AGE DISCRIMINATION IN ADVERTISING!!!!!” (I think that’s how many exclamation points were used.)
When did everyone get so bitter? Is it the business? Is it the recession? Is it just too easy to hide behind a screen name? Is it a combination of everything? Everybody chill. It’s just advertising. It’s not the Middle East.
Not that everything in advertising is sunshine, sparkles and unicorns. Nor should it be. We’re all opinionated, and everyone’s got a voice. That’s fine. I’m into engaging conversations. However, no one likes walking into a shouting match/insult-fest. It gets old. I don’t visit many other industry’s trade blogs. Are they as bitter as ad folk? Seriously, somebody answer that. I doubt it though. Maybe advertising is just too tolerant of whining. Maybe we need to stop. Because ask any child – something amazing happens when the whining stops. People start taking you seriously.
Perhaps you have a comment on the matter. Wait, let me get my Kevlar.
_____
Brad Mislow is a freelance senior copywriter in New York. His website, bradmislow.com, has no comment section.
31 Comments
Awesome post! I am often scared to leave comments on industry sites for fear of someone ripping on my comment.
I, like you, do not visit web pages for other industries, but I think that ad folks get so heated and snippy with eachother in part because they are not nearly as shy or sensored as those people in, say, HR or accounting. Ad folks might also be described, in general, as a little more passionate about their industry and the work they do. If they aren’t passionate about it, I don’t know why the hell they’re hanging around. This gig is not a walk in the park on most days.
I appreciate the sharp, whitty personality that is the ad industry but you’re right, it’s getting down-right nasty out there.
Let’s all just be friends.
Love,
Me
I think you hit the nail on the head when you mentioned anonymity. It’s tiring to see so many stories commented upon where the readers use the comment space as a platform for their personal agenda and/or vitriol.
And yes, I think the economy has something to do with it too. People are out of work, unsure about the future and scared. But that’s no excuse for the bad manners that so many people exhibit today.
I also try to keep my head out of the knife-fights and I think I do a pretty good job of keeping it uplifting.
I think people are very frustrated, because agencies are constantly beating their chests over talent and innovation, but their actions demonstrate bean counting, politics, and status quo, except for maybe a couple of “A” grade projects a year. And, the status quo behavior is literally killing our industry, yet it survives because it is the path of least resistance.
Like many Animals, Linchpin by Seth Godin absolutely blew me away. And he described very well why the “factory” model is broken, in both blue-collar and white-collar professions. As well as brilliantly pointed out solutions that any one of us can follow to rise above.
I think it’s a lot like road rage. People feel safe while yelling obscenities because they are inside a giant steel box. Anonymity provides the same sense of security. I can say whatever I want ’cause no one can really do anything about it. Civility – would be a lovely thing to embrace.
fantastic (and timely) post brad.
it’s not just the advertising business though, i see it everywhere. what may make these forums stand out is we’re a class of professionals (in some cases, the definition of that term is up or debate) who do work that’s part of us. it’s part of the makeup of our lives.
we don’t go to work and machine bolts for 12 hours a day, we sit and think and draw and converse and write and plot and scheme until we’ve solved the creative problem in front of us. a lot more of us as people goes into our final product than in many other professions.
all of that is not to say that’s the way people SHOULD act, but perhaps it explains why it’s the way they DO act.
imagine if all of the energy and time spent on tearing others down was spent building something…
Great post. Thanks for bringing this to light. I experienced the knives on adweek.com when I called out the anonymity of the negative posters, and by saying I stood behind my work (even gave the url of my website.) The backlash was a thrashing of: “you’re a hack”, “you’re subpar” and even critized my description on my twitter page. Gee, lotta time on the hands of these brilliant people. Maybe these are the people that needed to be made redundant at their job instead of the passionate creatives who always forge ahead. Interested to see if they pop up here.
Forgot to add to my post-
Anonymity is ruining good discussion on the internet. People think that removing anonymity means everyone has to be little miss sunshine. Not so. It just means you have to “think” before you post so you can criticize smartly.
Brad, you are handsome and your breath smells good. Ok, that’s officially the first nice thing I’ve written on an Ad-blog.
I think the negativity is an issue of self-esteem, personally. There are not that many great ads created each year, and a very small number of people want to work on the memorable stuff (Ie. Old Spice TV, et Al.). We, or most of us, however, like to think that we can do as well, if not better than the typical day-to-day agency minutiae, and that seems to come out in proving our dry, sardonic wit (which consequently, comes out as petty and mean) in the comments of blogs we (royal we) wish were writing about our work.
I wish that each and every comment required a name, as well as a link to that person’s book, because hey, talk shit if you want, but only if you are so talented that your work blows the aforementioned away. But, we all know, those at the top of the talent pool aren’t the ones cruising AgencySpy all day.
zg
oops, a correction, a very small number of people GET to work on the great stuff (we all want to, me thinks.)
Not sure it’s recent Brad.
I wrote a piece for AgencySpy almost a year ago, asking pretty much the same questions you did, but inviting the anonymous trolls to explain themselves.
What followed were 110 comments, 50% intelligent conversation, 50% trolls doing what they do– sniping, in-fighting, being anonymously nasty.
My gut still tells me the reason is that advertising has changed dramatically over the past 5 years and the things that used to ensure success no longer seem to matter all that much. Conversely, things haven’t changed as quickly as many on the other side of the coin wish they would.
So you’ve got a lot of frustrated people and a job market that’s anything but rosy.
Sort of a perfect storm.
Most of them seem to burn out after a while, develop other interests, give up on the sniping.
After some inflammatory comments on a piece I wrote for Adweek, the editor recently told me that they are going to change their 100% anonymity policy and require people to register before commenting. A step in the right direction.
I agree with Zach, adding that our profession is populated by hundreds of thousands of resentful articulate wiseasses desperate for an outlet. Thank you internet!
@Zach: How do you know about my breath? I won’t argue with you about the handsome part.
@Alan: I agree 100%. I think we’re experiencing such a periodic shift in the ad business (I’m saving that topic for another column). So many talented people I know, and used to work for, haven’t worked for months or close to a year. Still, I can’t picture any of them spouting vitriol online. But obviously, it’s happening, and seeing it surface in nearly every comment section is just getting old. My two cents after my two cents.
Ad folks write bitter comments on blogs because … they’re bitter people in real life. And they have a right to be bitter.
Many have lost their jobs to layoffs after years of hard work at an agency. Others work far too many hours for the average salary they receive, thus are missing time with their families yet still not making the bills. All are stressed out because its a stressful field to be in. The internet gives us trolls a place to vent.
Great post, Brad. And I’m not just saying it to be “nice.” It does seem that anonymity allows us to be, on one hand, better/bigger/more important than perhaps we truly are, while also allowing us to vent without much fear of recourse. And based on all the jabs/insults/threats being tossed about on the current healthcare reform, I don’t see the meanness being exclusive to the ad world. There’s nothing wrong with being constructive while expressing our personal opinions/views as long as they don’t venture over into being destructive. (After all, isn’t the intent of tearing someone else down usually a desperate attempt to build ourselves up?)
I’ve personally experienced the “meanness” beyond just hurling comments on a blog site. How many times have you heard downright nasty comments from people when looking through your portfolio? This business has always been subjective. And like other comments here, we don’t all get the privilege of working on the plumb biz.
It’s tough enough out there in the mean, old world just trying to survive. I know for me that I’m nearing overcompensation in the nicety department just in the hopes that it turns out to be a little more contagious with those I’m interacting with day-to-day.
Oh boy Brad. Just yesterday a notorious ad-org president proclaimed that AgencySpy is killing the industry. So maybe it’s our fault. Sorry.
Since the early part of the last century, people have hated advertising: it’s viewed as manipulative and since you don’t need a special degree, it’s never been respected. Ever. Fast forward 100 years when the tactics don’t work anymore and the people who gave it an ounce of respectability are dead. It’s time to take the names off the doors.
It’s but a shell of what it once was and few current leaders have been able to leverage the past without accidentally flashing their ulterior motives. Sincerity is blood in the water for trolls. It’s a big, dirty mess.
The commenting will never end Brad. Even if AgencySpy shut down today something would take its place. AdWeek and AdAge have been playgrounds for this more and more of late. Glad to hear the former is taking a stand.
Right now the business has a big cyst on its neck. The puss smells like shit and causes the skin to puff up red and ugly. Our job is to squeeze out the nastiness – dissect and analyze it – and let the industry have their say. Puss Analysis. Have you heard of anything more ridiculous? I can tell you that after two years of doing this my fingers are tired of squeezing it out. It just keeps coming, because there’s a deeper issue at the core.
What’s that mean? Not for me to say. Today, AdAge turned 80. Yesterday we reported that Bob Garfield has ended his critique column. Elliott and Lazare are pigeon holed one way or another, as am I (not that I count). And I think we’re all tired of listening to why this or that campaign is the game changer. I’m 25 and I can’t stand it. At this age, I’m already old.
I’m glad you asked this question Brad, because it needs to be asked at least once a year. But really it’s up to individuals to take responsibility and clean up. You can’t institutionalize respectability. Personal ownership is what’s missing here. But at the end of the day we thrive off each others failures because it allows us to feel better about ourselves. It’s about survival, Brad, and as long as there’s someone to throw under the bus – and as long as there’s a bus to be thrown under – advertising will be adept at taking advantage of the situation. That’s just good business.
Thank you!
I can’t tell you how much all of this stuff has scared me away from the industry as a student (soon-to-be graduate). I would hate to think that the people I will be permanently working with in a month or two are this bitter and angry about everything. It’s so good to know there’s still a few people out there who have their head on straight (i.e., out of theirs or their boss’ orifaces) and recognize a job-well-done.
Van Hoven makes a very interesting point – that even if Agencyspy died today, another site will pop up to act as depository for anonymous, angry RAWR RAWR trolls.
Even before 4Chan, there existed vicious internet trolls. A need was there, and 4Chan, by way of its anonymity, became the place where net anonymity converged, helping to foster a culture of anon-snark (although there are lots of other interesting/good aspects of 4Chan – their anonymous-based group attacks are fascinating)
but these websites don’t create trolls – more like the existence of trolls creates a vacuum on the web, and at some point, something will full that vacuum to attract “trolls”.
Which means, sadly, trolls will never go away. its good to have these “Hey guys, lets remember to be civil here”, and the smarter sites like Ad Age realize that having anonymity will inevitably drag their articles into flame wars.
Of course, in regards to Agencyspy, they HAVE to rely on anonymity – its how they get a lot of their stories (which are important to share). So how do we live with the trolls in these sites where anonymity is a condition of the site?
Anyway, sorry to net-nerd out on everyone. Net anonymity and its companion snark is one of the most intriguing things to come out of the aughts.
We work in a field filled with self-important people. I knew an AD who would constantly tell you your idea sucked (when his wasn’t picked)while he was working on your stuff. There’s the invincibility of youth (to be fair, it’s not everyone). I think some agencies foster this nastiness because they think intense competition brings out the best work. And I really believe a lot of people are in love with the fact that they’ve been deemed “creative”. One of the best pieces of advice I ever got was “So, you’re creative. Get over it.” Sure, I believe I’m a good copywriter even though I may not have the sexiest book. And yes, I’m frustrated with my job search. But that doesn’t mean I think everyone else sucks or is a “hack”. Being nasty is the easy way to deal with things. That doesn’t mean it’s the right way. It’s just the easy way.
I bet the person who keeps complaining about age discrimination is some old-ass hack with a crap book from some dinosaur agency that fired him ‘cuz he doesn’t know an app from his ass and all he does is bitch about the good old days when he could dig up some ancient idea from another shop and rehash it since there was no internet that people could look it up on. Fuck him.
The kind of comments we are discussing here make a bigger statement about the commenters themselves than the people/things they are ripping into – as per the saying, ‘We do not see things as they are. We see things as we are.’ And often very different frustrations lie behind them.
I’ve been struck by this with regard to the comment stream on my MakeLoveNotPorn TEDTalk on YouTube. TED originally disabled the comment stream when they posted it. I asked them to enable it, because I launched MakeLoveNotPorn to encourage open healthy dialogue and I wanted commenters to be able to say whatever they wanted. I assured TED I have a very healthy sense of humor about what would undoubtedly follow, that I would monitor the comment stream myself and respond wherever appropriate.
In the last three months my talk has been viewed over 67,000 times and inspired 830 comments, over two thirds of which I have responded to personally and publicly. Many comments are positive; many are negative, and consist primarily of (usually, not always)young men hiding behind the veil of anonymity a user name affords, and hurling obscene abuse at me. I have responded to each of those calmly, openly, straightforwardly and, importantly, with a sense of humor.
’
Eg Anonymous: ‘Any young guys fucking her must be doing so out of pity.’ Me: ‘Fortunately a number of guys in their twenties like to do charity work
I’ve been doing this because this is my chance to do something I feel very strongly about – the online equivalent of tapping someone on the shoulder and saying ‘Look me in the eye, and say that to my face’. Also because this is my one chance to open minds – the commenters will read replies addressed directly to them, and whether they choose to shrug them off or listen, it’s my opportunity to make them think differently about what they just said. And finally, because it is quite frankly highly entertaining for me – I never take these comments personally, and the reactions of some of the commenters when they realize I am listening and it is me responding are very funny.
The results have been fascinating. Lots of ‘respect’; ‘We did not expect you to respond’; ‘No TED speaker ever does that’. The perpetrator of one of the most offensive comments messaged me privately to apologize. With the worst flamers I invited them to message me one on one so we could discuss further. All of them with one exception took up this invitation, and our dialogue transformed as I got to hear more about them personally and understand where their anger and frustration was coming from – a number were male virgins…to whom I ended up giving dating and sex advice:)
As commenters have pointed out, there is a huge amount of misery and frustration in our industry at the moment. This manifests itself unfortunately in the syndrome we’re discussing. My personal philosophy is ‘always meet evil with good’, and I do encourage bloggers/posters to tackle unpleasant comments calmly and head-on, get to what really lies behind them and in doing so cause the commenter themselves to reflect on their own behavior – one small way in which to try ahd help create the more generally collaborative, friendly, ‘we’re all in this together’ feeling of industry solidarity I think we’d all like to see.
I think this is just the way the world always is, except that in *real* life you don’t hear most of this sludge because it is said behind your back or in private moments when two or more people are trying to make themselves feel better by tearing others down. I’ve never had a job that WASN’T like this–it’s just easier to ignore offline because they rarely say it to your face.
You put yourself out there blogging. It’s kind of like standing on a soapbox on the street. You have your say, but you also become an easy target.
It does get old. I have to just get offline once in awhile. Take a few no-net days and detox.
Excellent post. I couldn’t agree more. I still track sites like Agency Spy because, for breaking news, no one is better. However I’m so sick of the anonymous trolls tearing others down to build themselves up that I no longer read the comments. It’s not worth the aggravation.
A couple more thoughts:
Two years ago, Simon Veksner, who wrote the very popular Scamp blog in the UK, posted a set of “House Rules” that I stole to use on my blog as well. Here’s the link: http://scampblog.blogspot.com/2008/08/house-rules.html
If you don’t feel like clicking through, Veksner basically bans personal attacks: you can rag on the work all you want, but not the people behind it.
It’s something I wish the trades and Van Hoven would consider but I also understand that moderating every post and every comment on those sites is time consuming and they don’ necessarily have staff for it.
Great post, and insightful comments. Only gripe I have is that his comment “What up with that?” put that SNL sketch in my head irrevocably.
Update: Just noticed that Adweek has made it so one must register before commenting. We’ll see if this cleans up their comment boards or not. Definitely a step in the right direction.
@Carrie, putting that SNL sketch in your head was exactly the point. And for that, you’re welcome.
No matter what you do, if you’re not the boss, you get a dick up your ass. In advertising, that dick is bigger and goes deeper, I think that’s why we cry the loudest.
But I like the anonymity of comments. It’s the one place left in the world where you can say what you feel. And some people’s comments are fascinating and hysterical. If you don’t like a troll, just skip reading it, no one’s forcing you. I know I don’t want to give out personal info to register just to leave a sentence or two comment. And once I do register I get spam from the site. And that’s from every site I register at. Finally, it discourages people commenting who have unpopular opinions. You don’t really get a sense of what people feel because they are afraid to say it or when they do it is removed.
Sort of like when someone is put on the spot and asked if they support gay marriage. They may say yes because they feel to say otherwise would make people view them in a bad light. But then when they go behind that curtain to vote and no one knows who they are, they vote no.
Taking away the anonymity may remove the trolls but it also takes away the honesty. It all seems very “1984″ to me.
Hi. Don’t you need to credit the photographer for her crying child shot?
anonrep — probably? i always link it back to the source. if you click on the photo it takes it back to where i got it online.
Anyone notice that since adweek made their change instead of a healthy number of posts, some positive, some negative, there are none at all? That’s what removing anonymity does. It removes free speech.
Are some people’s posts dumb? Sure but who is the one who decides? If you disagree with someone are that persons comments stupid? If someone isn’t articulate enough to back a comment up does that invalidate the comment? I’d argue that the majority of the world population is “dumb”. Most people fit in the very average section of the Normal Curve.
I think the “dumb” comments are the ones to pay the most attention to, they represent the average person.
A couple more thoughts:
Two years ago, Simon Veksner, who wrote the very popular Scamp blog in the UK, posted a set of “House Rules” that I stole to use on my blog as well. Here’s the link: http://scampblog.blogspot.com/2008/08/house-rules.html
If you don’t feel like clicking through, Veksner basically bans personal attacks: you can rag on the work all you want, but not the people behind it.
It’s something I wish the trades and Van Hoven would consider but I also understand that moderating every post and every comment on those sites is time consuming and they don’ necessarily have staff for it.
Post a Comment