AdminErik: Chat starting in a couple minutes.
AdminErik: Hola “viewers.”
AdminErik: Hope you can become “participants.”
AdminErik: When a few more people show up, I’d like to talk about staying in/getting out of a crappy situation.
AdminErik: Even when there isn’t even a better opportunity directly in front of you.
AdminErik: The topic was suggested by Michael (you hear Michael?)
AdminErik: I thought it was good, since leaving a bad job can seem impossible when the economy is so rough.
AdminErik: Is anyone here working? Freelancing? Unemployed?
Dorono (guest): Hey there Erik! I am currently working at a well paying steady job as a web developer, but (almost literally) dying to strike out on my own as a freelancer full-time
AdminErik: Dorono. What’s stopping you?
Dorono (guest): Great question! I’ve got some work and clients lined up, but I still haven’t figured out how to nab the ones who will pay me a living wage. Lots of people looking for cheap work and still haven’t figured out a process to get the profitable ones
AdminErik: I can tell you that your skills are probably the most sought after in the industry right now.
AdminErik: In most industries, acutally.
AdminErik: Have you heard of a woman named Pam Slim?
Dorono (guest): yeah, I know. My challenge is that I’m more of a developer and not so much a designer, and it seems like a lot of people are doing both
Dorono (guest): yes, I am a client of Pam’s!
Dorono (guest): 
AdminErik: Well, there you go!
Dorono (guest): yeah, I’m well on my way, it’s just that these last (hopefully) last few months of building a profitable business are really tough
AdminErik: Dorono, what is your current situation? Married? Kids? Mortgage?
Dorono (guest): while working
Dorono (guest): married, no kids, no mortgage
AdminErik: Tell me about it
Dorono (guest): my wife is totally supportive
wwhd (guest): I know a woman who hated her job and quit 5 months ago in the middle of this economic nightmare. She didn’t have another job lined up but she was so miserable that she quit. She took the next job she could find, 2 positions below the one she had and a rather large pay cut in a different state.
Dorono (guest): she wants to do the same, she works for the state
AdminErik: wwhd…how is she today?
wwhd (guest): She finally sold her house and is currently looking for a new one. She is much happier than she was, but my gut tells me this is a bandaid.
AdminErik: Dorono, I know it’s easy for me to sit here and tell you what you should do…but I’m trying to figure out what’s stopping you from pulling the trigger.
AdminErik: WWHD – “much happier than she was.” Bandaid or not, how awesome!
wwhd (guest): Or complete denial.
Marcio: he he he
Marcio: Hi!
Dorono (guest): I guess the fear is that I really only have 1 job lined up after the ones I’m doing, and I am afraid that I won’t be able to get paid a living wage.
AdminErik: Marcio…is that you?
Marcio: yep
Marcio: howdy
AdminErik: Welcome back!
Marcio: CHeers!
Dorono (guest): Justto wrap up what I was saying, I’m nervous about not being a great designer, so I need to parner with someone who can do that while I do the coding/development
AdminErik: Dorono…you’d be amazed how resourceful you can be when your livelihood depends on it.
AdminErik: Dorono…those are easy tofind.
AdminErik: And they don’t even have to be local.
Dorono (guest): yeah, not to toot my own horn, but I am a very experienced web developer working for a Silicon Valley company
AdminErik: Have you checked out the talent section on beta.pleasefeedtheanimals.com?
Dorono (guest): maybe my standards are too high(?) in terms of what I think that clients demand in terms of perfection
Dorono (guest): no, I’d love to
AdminErik: There are dozens of designers who would love to go into business with you.
Dorono (guest): in fact, if any of you in the chat are graphic designers, I’d love to talk to you
Dorono (guest):
darnok: I also have a job that is slowly killing me. My biggest problem is I can’t decide what it is I should do next.
AdminErik: Actually, it isn’t that easy yet…still some UI issues with talent finding other talent.
Marcio: I’m kind of a graphic designer
AdminErik: marci…meet dorono
AdminErik: marcio, i mean
Dorono (guest): ahh, very cool, please to meet you marcio
AdminErik: ladies and gentlemen, marcio designed the new PFTA logo
Marcio: equally.
AdminErik: which you can find on http://beta.pleasefeedtheanimals.com
Dorono (guest): Very cool!
Marcio: I’m not a huge fan of web design, but maybe that’s a good thing.
Marcio: he he
Marcio: it feels like a heresy to say that~
Marcio: !
AdminErik: darnok…what do you do now?
darnok: writer at an ad agency.
Marcio: Dorono, you can check my work at dyslexicpictures.com/marcio
darnok: got into the business because I wanted to create stuff.
wwhd (guest): I am freelancing as a web designer on my own right now. It’s scary, but somehow, I am keeping my head above water. I just got a new big client that should keep me going for now.
darnok: seems like all I do is rewrite headlines
Dorono (guest): @Marcio, very cool I’ll check it out now
Marcio: enjoy
Dorono (guest): @wwhd, very inspiring!
AdminErik: darnok…that’s what i’m now out of the business (for time being). because i want to create stuff. very little of that in advertising these days.
darnok: so I’m wondering if that’s the reality of the business and I need to start looking for other things (sports, teaching, etc.) that might light my fire
AdminErik: wwhd…meed dorono
AdminErik: he’s a developer who would like to partner with a designer
wwhd (guest): Hey Dorono. I think you can do the solo thing, but you need to jump to do it — a leap of faith, if you will.
Dorono (guest): Love the work Marcio, you’re definitely a graphic designer in as fas as I’m concerned!
Dorono (guest): wow, ok, thanks wwhd
darnok: yeah Marcio…great work on the PFTA beta
Marcio: thanks! actually you may rather see dyslexicpictures.com/marcio/work/design.. more relevant to what you’re looking for.. maybe?
Marcio: it’s my more design-centric stuff.
Dorono (guest): everyone always says that to go into biz for yourself you need to have months of $$ saved up, a niche solidified, a process solidified, and to be “the best in the world” in your niche
AdminErik: darnok….there are a million ways to be creative. and to make a living doing it.
Dorono (guest): sometimes very intimidating when I thik of it that way
AdminErik: dorono…untrue
AdminErik: you just need to make the decision to do it.
AdminErik: you can’t be stupid about it.
Marcio: I think it’s probably a good idea to have at least 6 months worthy of living expenses saved.
AdminErik: but, the biggest difference between entrepreneurs and employees is action.
Marcio: ideally 1 year.
AdminErik: again, i would disagree.
Marcio: why?
wwhd (guest): Dorono, stop giving yourself reasons not to do it. Then you may start seeing all the ways you CAN do it!
Dorono (guest): ok, that’s so encouraging
Dorono (guest): believe me, it’s like ALL I think about
Dorono (guest): I know I can do it,I just thought that I had to have more money and clients lined up before pullig the trigger
AdminErik: would it be ideal? sure. but say you have an idea now and no life savings. can you really say that a year from now, when you’ve got it all put away, that you’ll still be motivated to pursue it?
AdminErik: dorono, with your skills, you can ALWAYS get another full time job
AdminErik: developers are in such huge demans.
AdminErik: demand.
AdminErik: especially if you keep your skills current.
Dorono (guest): yeah, in fact, I was ready to pull the trigger last week, I still get a few inquiries from recruiters each week
Dorono (guest): yeah, I’m learning a ton about wordpress and have build some pretty complex wordpress sites
Marcio: Krop has a chuckful of developer jobs.
AdminErik: what more proof do you need?
Dorono (guest): Haha…um….I dunno, just trying to be sensible, but I totally hear you
Dorono (guest): and I will take action
AdminErik: like i said, it’s easy for us chatters, who don’t know a thing about you or your personal situation, to jump to conclusions. but it sounds like it will only get more dificult the longer you wait.
Dorono (guest): we’re going to move to a bigger and less expensive apartment, so I was thinking about keeping the job just so we can get a new apartment
Dorono (guest): it might be tough to get a new place when they see I have no recent pay stub
AdminErik: there will never be the perfect time, dorono
Dorono (guest): Haha, well, you’re definitely telling me what I want to hear, this is awesome, the thought of freedom seems too good to be true, but I am warming up to the thought that maybe it is good enough to be true
Dorono (guest): your story is very inspiring
AdminErik: again, not true. if you show a lot of money in the bank from your freelance/business clients, you will.
wwhd (guest): Don’t worry about the pay stub issue. Cross that bridge when you get to it.
Dorono (guest): @wwhd, ok, that does make sense (good general process)
Dorono (guest): so this is a very different kind of group
Dorono (guest): much more daring
Marcio: welcome to adland
Dorono (guest): so many of the entrepreneurship experts out there seem to be much more conservative
AdminErik: i’d say you were right if you were looking to sign a mortgage. but renters are much more accepting. especially if your wife works.
Dorono (guest): yeah
Dorono (guest): I’m used to being to “no way, hold on to your job, you need to work and work and work until your biz is self sustaining and THEN quit.
Dorono (guest): “
AdminErik: again, i’m not advocating anything stupid. but you’re a developer with in-demand skills and a potential client lined up. stop looking for reasons “why not” and start looking for “why.”
Marcio: This reminds me of a quote from Nietzche. Only when you build a house at the edge of the cliff do you get to see the view. If you don’t risk it, you don’t get it.
AdminErik: literally, write down the pros and cons. there’s no way the pros won’t vastly outnumber the cons.
Dorono (guest): ok, cool
AdminErik: nice.
Dorono (guest): I am definitely copying this chat down
Dorono (guest): it will be awesome to refer to
Dorono (guest): you guys have definitely lit a serious fire under my ass, this is actually awesome.
AdminErik: Also, a from one of the PFTA guest bloggers, who quoted JFK:
AdminErik: “The Irish writer Frank O’Connor wrote how, as a boy, he and his friends would make their way across the countryside. When they came to an orchard wall that seemed too high and too doubtful to try and too difficult to permit their voyage to continue, they took off their hats and tossed them over the wall – and then they had no choice but to follow them.” Kennedy concluded, “This nation has tossed its cap over the wall of space, and we have no choice but to follow it.”
AdminErik: This before he announced the mission to the moon.
wwhd (guest): Dorono, I have no doubt that as a web developer (esp. from Sil. Valley) you will be successful all by yourself in no time.
darnok: That JFK sure was good with words
Marcio: that’s cause he’s a democrat
AdminErik: Hey…no politics here.
Marcio: sorry +)
Dorono (guest): I actually work in LA for a Silicon-valley based company, but yeah, that’s the culture, everyone I work with is a senior-level developer
AdminErik: I’d hate for the chat to spiral in the wrong directio
AdminErik: n
Dorono (guest): OK, so let’s open up the discussion to Religion then…
Dorono (guest): KIDDING
AdminErik: haha
AdminErik: Dorono, others….if you want to partner with someone, check out the ad talent section here:
AdminErik: http://www.pleasefeedtheanimals.com/art-directors/creative/
AdminErik: pay no mind to the “art-directors” part of the link. those are all creatives.
Dorono (guest): This is awesome! I can design, but I’m not great and I take a long time, so to find a partner who could do that for me would relieve so much pressure. Ad companies often have the most talented designers too, so this is a great resource.
AdminErik: darnok…got any specific thoughts about what else you’d want to do?
Marcio: Erik, have you heard of NABS?
AdminErik: which is that?
wwhd (guest): Did anyone hear “Talk of the Nation” on NPR yesterday? It was about a Mad Man who left the biz. Listen to it on line here:
Marcio: in the UK? IT’s the charity for marketing and advertising progessionals
wwhd (guest): http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=113128574
Marcio: professionals.
AdminErik: marcio..can’t say i have.
AdminErik: i have his book!
AdminErik: we chat on twitter from time to time. really nice guy.
darnok: um…seems like a book I should pick up
AdminErik: darnok, where do you live? i actually have two copies of it.
darnok: New Orleans
AdminErik: don’t give your address here, obv. just wondering
AdminErik: ah, k
darnok: yeah…down in the durty durty
AdminErik: darnok – i started teaching recently as well.
darnok: how do you like that?
AdminErik: love it.
Dorono (guest): @Erik, what are you teaching?
darnok: I’m actually meeting with the department head of the local University to talk about any opportunities there
darnok: tonight
AdminErik: i’m doing into corporate marketing departments and teaching creative concepts courses.
Dorono (guest): very cool
Marcio: you should look into it, it’s AWESOME. They’re funded by UK ad agencies, and it gives ad people job hunting facilities, career advice, a free shrink, computers, fax, phone, workshops, apt-hunting board. Sometimes they’ll hook you up with ECDs.. all free.. and it sounds like your mission and theirs is very similar.
Dorono (guest): natural fit for you
AdminErik: set up through the boston advertising club. i didn’t think i’d like it so much, but i do.
Dorono (guest): darnok, sounds great for you as well
darnok: yeah…I need to get a taste for it…see how I like it
AdminErik: there are all kinds of those little opportunities around.
Dorono (guest): I hope tonight goes well for you!
darnok: thanks
AdminErik: here’s the mental shift you have to make, and it’s a big one….but so worth it once you get there…
darnok: but I do know that I love working with young creatives…thinking about ideas…how to make them better
AdminErik: treat yourself like a company. if they had one client, it would be business suicide. just like if you had one employer. if youhave many employers, you can absorb a loss.
Dorono (guest): multiple streams of income
Dorono (guest): much more stable and secure actually
AdminErik: teach a class. freelance. design some CD covers. work part time somewhere.
Dorono (guest): yeah, I was talking to my wife about teaching a distance education class on web development
AdminErik: i’ll give you my own example….which is still a work in progress, but it’s the one i know the best… right now, i’m teaching a class, freelacning, building PFTA, and shooting a finishing a movie. 2 out of 4 of them make revenue, affording me the opportunity to do the other two things, which will hopefulyl make revenue some day.
Dorono (guest): that does sound really good, very do-able
Marcio: I’ve been thinking of teaching as well.. I tried at NYU, but no cigar. I’m not seeing too many teaching job postings lately. Trying at the apple store, giving workshops.
AdminErik: now, i’ve come very close to missing a mortgage payment once or twice, but thank goodness it hasn’t come to that yet.
Dorono (guest): here’s a question
Dorono (guest): a lot of people talk about how having no money is so stressful
AdminErik: and it is
AdminErik: absolutely
Dorono (guest): that’s how I feel deep down
Dorono (guest): nothing could be worse than living a restricted life watching the months and years roll by
AdminErik: working for myself means i rely on myself. i don’t have to worry whether or not the new business people in my agency are any good at their job, or how the clients are being managed. it’s all on me.
AdminErik: it’s stressful, absolutely. but it’s (cue the dramatic music) most alive i’ve ever felt.
Marcio: Dorono, that’s true, but it’s also interesting. You start realising how much bullshit we buy into. for instance you’ll realise that a $4 cappuccino is really just a glorified version of the $1.50 coffee with milk.
AdminErik: excellent point marcio
wwhd (guest): having no money is very stressful. having a shitty job is very stressful. you’re the only one that will be able to tell which is worse. No one here can give you a definitive answer.
AdminErik: wwhd…exactly
Dorono (guest): come on guys, you need to tell me what to do! If I fail, I’m coming to hit ou guys up for money!!
Dorono (guest):
AdminErik: but by virtue of the fact that they ARE here, i’m guessing that most people reading/chatting are thinking that maybe there’s something better out there.
Marcio: living frugally can be actually quite good for you, I eat a lot better and more delish now that I cook more often than I eat out.
Marcio: and cooking is an art into itself, with infinite creative potential
Dorono (guest): Yeah, that’s going to be a challenge for my wife and I. We live in a pretty fancy apartment in Marina del Rey, CA and eat out a lot….
Dorono (guest): but, frugality beats acubicle any day
Marcio: then put that fancy kitchen to use
AdminErik: so, 10 minutes left…some quick updates about Lemonade…
Dorono (guest): plus, it’s only temporary b/c I know that there’s a lot of money to be made when you’re doing what you love, in fact, much more money
AdminErik: finished a rough cut last week, and got it entered in Sundance.
Marcio: cool
Dorono (guest): wow, very nice!
darnok: way to go
AdminErik: we still have a few shots to get.
AdminErik: and color correction, mix, etc.
AdminErik: but i’m really psyched about how it’s turning out
AdminErik: Still shooting for an October release…
Dorono (guest): The preview looked really, really cool.
Marcio: sounds awesome. will it be in movie theaters?
AdminErik: but realistically, it’ll be closer to the end of october than the beginning
AdminErik: it’s not really a “theater” kind of movie.
Marcio: so how can we watch it?
AdminErik: but you never know
AdminErik: the plan is for it to be virtual.
darnok: get it on netflix
Dorono (guest): I could see it being on cable as well, if not in indie theaters
Marcio: netflix, yeah!
AdminErik: but there’s potential for it to air elsewhere. a network, or on dvd, or itunes, or something.
AdminErik: exaclty
Dorono (guest): Sundance Channel, Current TV, etc
AdminErik: i’ve been so focused on finishing it that i haven’t given much thought to distribution.
Dorono (guest): of course
AdminErik: what I won’t do is hold it to myself while it makes the festival rounds.
AdminErik: it’s going to be where the most people will be able to see it.
AdminErik: i’m just trying to figure out what that is right now.
Dorono (guest): I can see it being viewed in every ad agency
AdminErik: possibly
Dorono (guest): even the people who aren’t considering quitting will definitely have to take notice
Dorono (guest): ad agencies seem to be getting hit hard right now, and I would imagine that layoffs are at least in the back of everyone’s mind, right?
AdminErik: chiat laid off a bunch today
AdminErik: in nyc
AdminErik: and it’s the end of q3, so i’d bet more are coming.
Dorono (guest): I would be interested in a movie about tech layoffs, even if I wasn’t likely to be laid off myself
darnok: thanks for the chat everyone…very inspiring…now I must get back to revising headlines!!!!
AdminErik: darnok…own them!
darnok: I’m gonna put them in their place
darnok: later everyone. thanks.
Sam (guest): Hey, everyone. Just now saw your Tweet Erik.
Dorono (guest): very cool, good luck darnok
AdminErik: alright, time to get back to your regularly scheduled afternoons.
AdminErik: hi sam.
AdminErik: just wrapping up
Dorono (guest): Thanks Erik, this has been a surprisingly inspiring impromptu morning excursion for me.
AdminErik: i’ll post the transcripts in their entirety in 5-10 minutes.
Marcio: Thanks, Erik.
Dorono (guest): awesome, that was my next question
AdminErik: you’re welcome. thanks for saying that!
AdminErik: until next time…
Dorono (guest): oh no, thanks for the advice, hope I didn’t chatter away too much here, but I really needed to hear what you had to say
Dorono (guest): till next time…
Dorono (guest): but your experience is that being in a shitty job is even worse, correct?
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