AdminErik: Today’s topics (loosely structured): 1- Relocating if you don’t already have a gig lined up. 2: – Programming skills for art directors…how much should they have? 3 – Job searching for juniors 4: General PFTA/Lemonade update.
AdminErik: Okay, it’s 2:00. Hola, everybody.
(guest): Hello
amanda (guest): hi ther
AdminErik: Thanks for submitting discussion topics to those who did.
AdminErik: Don’t want to be too rigid in the format of how we address them. I tend to like how organic these chats can be.
(guest): Sounds good
falzone (guest): hola, amigos
AdminErik: THe first one re: relocation…
AdminErik: There are a couple of schools of thought. One is, pick the city you want to live in and just go.
AdminErik: Crash on couches, temp, do whatever you have to to make ends meet.
AdminErik: The other is to do the job search from afar, get hired, then go.
AdminErik: I tend to lean toward the former.
amanda (guest): in this industry- is the saying “it’s easier to find a job if you have one” apply?
AdminErik: well, sometimes. but i wouldn’t call that the rule.
AdminErik: although, i would say that it’s easier to find a job in the city you want to be in if you’re already there.
falzone (guest): that’s the “it’s easier to find an agent if you already have one” Hollywood writer rule, amanda 
AdminErik: it’s harder to come by relocation these days, for sure.
amanda (guest): oh, right…
AdminErik: i’ve relocated several times. once to a city first, then i found a job. but, admittedly, i had a job first before moving the other times.
pmack: It seems harder to get an interview in a distant city in the first place
AdminErik: exactly
AdminErik: BUT…it also depends on the city you’re moving to and from.
AdminErik: When I moved to Cleveland, I had an aura (however mistakenly) of being from a big market. That was an appeal.
falzone (guest): when i moved from LA to boston, i heard about the job opening first, travelled for the interview, then relocated once i got the gig
AdminErik: But if you’re trying to move to NYC, there is such a rich talent pool there that agencies almost never interview from outside the market.
amanda (guest): from a creative’s standpoint – if they like your work, and it’s between you (who lives elsewhere) and someone else (already in the city) – who get’s more points from a hiring manager’s POV?
pmack: hmm, being a young creative does not help that appeal.
AdminErik: you’d like to think that the better book wins.
amanda (guest): i would like to think that
pmack: ha, that sucks about NYC.
AdminErik: do you really want to be in this city?
amanda (guest): the city i’m going after is not NYC, but close. really a region – would love to get into a bigger agency
pmack: never stopped me from applying though
AdminErik: Amanda…are you currently working? Would you be leaving a job to do this?
falzone (guest): i think as long as you’re willing to relocate — and rather soon after getting the job — it really shouldnt matter
falzone (guest): as far as them seeing you as a good candidate
billy_ivey: I think books matter less than the market(s)… I have often been told that I have the book, not the pedigree. Perhaps I just suck really bad and people are (often) just being nice.
AdminErik: Having the “best” book is a bare minimum. There is so much more you need to be/do/have to get hired now.
amanda (guest): i am currently working. after grad school, the market tanked. got the first job i could as an AD. is a great place to start because of the opportunities i’ve had (TV). But I want to move to a different place.
pmack: I hate being told I have a good book and not enough agency exp. Really? that’s the deal breaker?
pmack: everyone wants it. no one wants to give it
AdminErik: Well, it really is a personal decision. How happy are you in your current situation? Do you KNOW you want to be in this other place? And how much do you want to be there? What would happen if you left your current gig and just move? Seriously, assess the worst possible scenerio. And if it’s better than staying where you are, then just go.
falzone (guest): i think that’s industry code, that “not enough agency experience” thing
falzone (guest): or a euphemism for something hard to explain
pmack: I’d agree with that. It’s an easy out
AdminErik: I think not enough experience is applicable to a point. But juniors with no experience are hired all the time. What separates them from those who aren’t hired?
amanda (guest): the book. their charisma. the way they speak. confidence
billy_ivey: I think so, too. But I also think that if you’re great enough, you’ll get work.
AdminErik: yes…
falzone (guest): connections help, too
AdminErik: well, that, too
amanda (guest): for sure
pmack: I agree with Amanda
AdminErik: but those things are out of your control. what IS in your control?
billy_ivey: Pizza Hut.
falzone (guest): charisma’s not out of your control
AdminErik: well, sure. you can work on your “stage presence.”
deenile (guest): The main thing one wants to focus on when moving to another city is if you like the city AND the job. One can, relocate and settle only to be kicked to the curb. (comment a little late)
amanda (guest): in every situation i’ve been hired, i have made a personal connection with the person interviewing me
amanda (guest): we like the same book, saw the same movie, something that we were able to take a 5 min tangent
pmack: how much emphasis is put on HOW you apply? Tweeting your way to a job at CPB or doing something out of the ordinary to get attention — it seems like half the battle is getting noticed in the first place
AdminErik: pmack…that’s certainly true, as well.
AdminErik: i think you need to distinguish yourself at every turn.
pmack: this is true
AdminErik: how you apply, what you do in your spare time, projects you’re working on outside of advertising…
AdminErik: like i said, a great book is the bare minimum.
AdminErik: i sent my site to wieden once. and their reply was “this is pretty good. but i don’t want to see your ads. i want to see you.”
pmack: my book’s been neglected far too long
pmack: what’d you do then, Erik?
deenile (guest): think of it as an employer would. What added value can this person bring in addition to the book.
AdminErik: they told me to send them other stuff…screen plays…sketches…poems..whatever.
amanda (guest): erik- so what’d you do?
falzone (guest): wow
falzone (guest): i wish someone would ask me to send them a poem
pmack: that’s awesome.
falzone (guest): not that i’ve written any, but still
pmack: ha, but you WOULD, falzone
AdminErik: i started making a site specific for Wieden something like mywiedensite.com or something, that had all my non-ads stuff on it.
AdminErik: then i started blogging and doing lemonade and never got around to finishing it.
falzone (guest): would a limerick qualify?
pmack: perhaps a sonnet
AdminErik: the point is, agencies (the good ones, anyway) want to know you can do ads. but the more want to know how you think.
pmack: I think the hard part is getting their attention in the first place
amanda (guest): that’s good advice.
creativevixen: how many of them, do you think, want to see your process? like the different versions of an idea, or your sketches, etc.
falzone (guest): my last creative director told me they chose me over the other final candidate because i had storytelling ability
falzone (guest): rather than a glossy book of agency ads
pmack: I can email. I can write a hand written note. I can call. But it’s still hard to get them interested in seeing you
falzone (guest): (not that I didn’t have great samples, but)
AdminErik: exactly.
amanda (guest): i was hired at my current position because i have great presentation skills, and i am confident when i speak
falzone (guest): no kidding
AdminErik: a lot of times, you have to tailor your presentation to the agency.
pmack: those are huge skills
deenile (guest): and tailor to the hiring person?
amanda (guest): for sure if you know the hiring person
AdminErik: if you can get that fine, sure. but how often to you know what the hiring person is really like?
deenile (guest): And HR person told me once that people like to hire “themselves”
falzone (guest): it’s amazing how much “selling” you need to do in this job… to your peers, your creative director, the account folks, never mind the client
pmack: salesmen all the time
falzone (guest): so yeah, presentation skills are muy importante
AdminErik: Don’t know if you guys saw this way back in April, but this guy challenged Alex Bogusky to a rap battle.
AdminErik: http://www.pleasefeedtheanimals.com/2009/04/14/it-takes-balls-to-get-an-interview-at-crispin/
AdminErik: he got an interview, but not the job.
pmack: I remember that
AdminErik: but this got sent around the web enough, that some other recruiter heard about it.
AdminErik: he ended up getting an interview in seattle because of it.
AdminErik: and they DID hire him.
pmack: nice
AdminErik: so, there are some theatrics that can be involved.
AdminErik: but, again, you have to know your audience.
AdminErik: like any brief.
AdminErik: That tactic might not have worked so well for a conservative southern shop.
amanda (guest): ha.
AdminErik: but it was dead on for buzz-hungry crispin.
(guest): I think the tactic also has to fit your personality
AdminErik: Would love to know who these “16 viewers” are. Contribute, you anonymous types.
amanda (guest): well, that helps.
amanda (guest): gives me a new road to go down
AdminErik: “don’t be the person looking for a job. be the person doing something interesting.”
creativevixen: i’m not shy about asking for informational interviews. i think it’s flattering to be asked “what do you think.” and it takes away the worry about being rejected for a job
creativevixen: and puts you in mind when/if something opens up
pmack: I did info interviews when I looked for work in Chicago. had a great visit with someone at EnergyBBDO
amanda (guest): i have asked for informational interviews before. good way to meet the gatekeepers. as a creative, there are going to be several looking and deciding who the team wants to work with
falzone (guest): what city are you looking to go to, amanda
falzone (guest): ?
AdminErik: Okay, let’s segue. Someone asked about how much development experience art directors should have.
AdminErik: This isn’t my area of expertise necessarily.
ryan (guest): Informational interviews worked best for me. I got my name out there, networked and when there was an opening, my name was in the game. Those contacts then helped me move jobs down the road
AdminErik: All I know is that it’s really, really hard to be great at both things.
AdminErik: The best developers I know aren’t great designers/art directors and vice versa.
creativevixen: many people i’ve talked to seem to want art directors to be able to design, but not necessarily code. they assume there’ll be a developer to do the programming
AdminErik: But if you are that kind of hybrid, you’re one of the most in-demand skill sets out there right now.
amanda (guest): boston – but i’d go to providence or ct (maybe)
falzone (guest): i’m in boston now — maybe i can help
(guest): So what makes a great interactive art director, knowing what is capable and being able to design for it?
creativevixen: doesn’t the programmer/designer pair seem like an oxymoron? i mean, they’re two very different talents. is it really expected that you’re a pro at both?
AdminErik: Amanda…lots of Boston peeps here. Email me offline if you’d like to chat more.
falzone (guest): ditto
AdminErik: vixen…it would seem so
AdminErik: yet, hiring companies are looking for them more and more.
deenile (guest): a friend of mine (who had won many awards) was relulantly hired freelance at Digitas. Hesitation was that she didn’t have much Direct Mail. She eventually worked on wed stuff. Everyone commented on what a great thinker she was. They were blown away. Yes, because they weren’t used to hiring thinkers.
AdminErik: rare is the person who is great at both.
amanda (guest): falzone- would love the assistance. DM me @SurfJunki. Erik – I will.
amanda (guest): You hav eto know how people read a site, to design around it, to make it interesting.
deenile (guest): meant to say worked on WEB stuff.
valerie (guest): I’m a designer and I know html/css. It has gotten me the gig I have now and I can pay my mortgage. I wouldn’t have gotten that gig if I couldn’t code an email blast
JBCopeland: vixen – as someone coming from a digital agency background, I can tell you that programmers/designers that can talk in each other’s basic language were usually the best teams
AdminErik: valerie…exactly
AdminErik: well said
amanda (guest): but in my experience, most AD’s don’t have to code. IAD’s have to know flash, but not code – they have coding guys
amanda (guest): but if you know it all, you’re the golden ticket
Guest281 (guest): what about for interactive copywriters? What are the expectations?
JBCopeland: it’s not that they have to have the skills, it’s that they understand the rules governing of each other’s ideas
valerie (guest): I have no problem discussing layout issues because I “get it.”
AdminErik: i know a few writers who can code too
valerie (guest): One thing is for sure, interactive is NOT going away…
JBCopeland: guest281 – interactive copywriters, in my experience, just needed to write well, and understand that some pages of content were instructional (not poetry)
AdminErik: I cut my nose shaving today. I’ve got a big wad of bloody toilet paper stuck to it right now. Just thought you guys would like to know that.
Guest281 (guest): as far as spec work when your applying for interactive jobs whats the best thing to do with showing website ideas?
deenile (guest): good thing it happened after the ABC interview
billy_ivey: You shave your nose?
ryan (guest): JBCopeland – good to see you on here, as another account guy. Getting a lot out of your Thurs posts.
JBCopeland: <– glad this isn’t a video chat. doesn’t need to see erik’s nose.
AdminErik: haha. i slipped.
creativevixen: ouch. but now i _want_ to see erik’s nose. i’m morbidly curious
AdminErik: guest281…if you have dev experience, you should make them live
JBCopeland: hey thanks Ryan. If you ever have questions, please post em in the commentary or feel free to email.
(guest): any recommendations on were to start and learn the skills necessary for an interactive ad? I have more of a traditional background and want to get better interactively
aok (guest): I met a ECD at portfolio night, was invited to interview with 3 CD teams and a Creative recruiter… only to be told at the end of 2.5 hours that there were no positions available. btw the interview couldn’t have been better. my question is, why do agencies do such mean things…
amanda (guest): i’m at a small agency now. we have a couple writers. they write for web and print. for web, they just make sure that it’s short, but attention grabbing. because “no one reads the copy”
AdminErik: but don’t code them just to show you can code. make sure the idea rocks.
creativevixen: if you don’t have dev experience, i assume it’s static pages that show how things are intended to work?
deenile (guest): Tutorials on Lynda.com
AdminErik: aok…
Guest588 (guest): Anyone have any advice on getting in at a NYC shop coming from a smaller market?
valerie (guest): Guest281, you can layout at website just like any other design project, it just takes understanding the gist of the site. Redundancy is key because no two viewers approach a site the same way. Think about how you access your favorite sites and start from there.
AdminErik: aok..it sucks, doesn’t it?
Guest281 (guest): Similiar question if a CD specifically says to contact them, why don’t they answer emails?
AdminErik: they’re all stockpiling creatives with the hope that they’ll be hiring some day.
AdminErik: 281-this is one of my biggest pet peeves in the world
amanda (guest): or they’re too busy to answer the ones they’re not interested in
ryan (guest): I worked in NYC for many years. Best way in is unfortunately still networking. Either that or blow them away with something unique. I found they don’t want to hire from outside of the market though — they generally feel the best talent is already in NYC. (it was easier for me to go the other way – get hired from NYC)
AdminErik: it’s just common, human courtesy
deenile (guest): 281 some people are just RUDE
creativevixen: that’s my feeling too (on returning calls/emails). everyone’s busy. it takes five minutes to write a quick note
Guest281 (guest): and recruiters do the leading on dance too.. I had one that told me an agency liked me for like 3 weeks after an interview then dissepeard
valerie (guest): Erik, you mean like calling a girl you met at a bar because you said you would? (I know you’re married)
amanda (guest): you’re going to run into it often, unfortunately
Guest281 (guest): Thats what i feel like the job search is now bad dates
aok (guest): the ones stock piled at the bottom are getting squished
deenile (guest): we simply have to have tough skin.
Guest281 (guest): how do you get to the top of the stockpile?
AdminErik: valerie…well, yes, that’s one analogy.
creativevixen: it’s hard not to take it personally, but it’s not personal when people do that
AdminErik: the people doing the hiring forget how much our lives hang on the balance of their return call.
aok (guest): i think you just have to keep up with new projects whether it be ad related or not.
valerie (guest): Tell yourself you won’t get called. Start there. Then you won’t be disappointed and happily surprised if you do!
JBCopeland: the dead-end happens aok. I wrote a PFTA post about it with a few ideas for getting a ‘next step’: http://www.pleasefeedtheanimals.com/2009/06/30/what-to-do-when-interviews-go-nowhere-by-josh-copeland/
AdminErik: they’re off shooting, spending all day in meetings, trying to make deadlines. they forget that that one little email they sent that showed some interest is the best email of some young creative’s live.
Aparatchik (guest): nice job pulling me in with the tweet, Erik
aok (guest): because if your really a creative and interesting person, you should naturally be doing cool and awesome things no?
aok (guest): lol
AdminErik: apartchik..you’re welcome.
AdminErik: aok…you just nailed it.
AdminErik: creative people don’t stop being creative just because they lose their job.
Aparatchik (guest): it usually frees them
Guest281 (guest): but a job would be nice as well (=
aok (guest): thanks for the link JB i’ll read it
amanda (guest): yeah – when you’re not working 10+ hour days thinking about your clients, you’re brain can wander into great things
deenile (guest): yes. it is hard to feel free feasting on Campbells soup.
AdminErik: i still love josh kobrin’s story. the second he stopped looking for a job and started being creative again was the second he got hired. http://www.pleasefeedtheanimals.com/2009/07/30/build-yourself-a-job-by-josh-kobrin/
Aparatchik (guest): it’s fun adventuring in off-brief land
JBCopeland: no problem aok – hope it helps.
Aparatchik (guest): btw, if any of you, or anyone you know, is an absolutely killer Maya artist, I have a gig open
deenile (guest): maya artist?
Aparatchik (guest): 3d
aok (guest): haha with unemployment funding me for now… i feel like i’m a on a forced sabatical…
creativevixen: i had myself on a tight schedule (book updated by such date, need to be working by this time) and was tying myself in knots. i finally loosened up and the ideas just flowed
valerie (guest): aok, you’re kidding right? Don’t shoot yourself in the foot!
AdminErik: vixen…ta da!
Aparatchik (guest): aok, I’m with ya… I loved my three months off
AdminErik: btw…lots more rumbling these days about freelance and job openings.
AdminErik: people are posting on the beta site more.
creativevixen: my biggest worry now is who’s gonna let me stumble into work around 10am and work in my pajamas?
AdminErik: you guys all registered there, by the way?
amanda (guest): yeah – forget where i read it, but “they” say Nov-Jan should be good hiring months
Aparatchik (guest): true indeed, Erik… most of the folks I’ve been chatting with on the staffing side of the business are seeing things pick up
deenile (guest): how are things at pfta?
AdminErik: things are good.
AdminErik: i have to confess, i can only be on top of one thing at a time. i’m not the fantastic multitasker i once thought i was.
creativevixen: yup, i’m registered. it’s a great resource, erik. thanks so much. [/buttkissing]
AdminErik: Lemonade has been on the front burner, and PFTA/bloggind have suffered bc of it.
valerie (guest): multitasking is overrated. Best to concentrate on one thing and make it GREAT!
aok (guest): valerie– yeah… its a double edge sword. i can do new projects and ride my bike everywhere yet… the idea that a creative has no deadlines is not a good thing…
deenile (guest): i hear ya aok
AdminErik: so, we have writers, account service, art directrs and interactive represented here.
AdminErik: let’s start an agency!
valerie (guest): Bring it!
deenile (guest): do we have a client?
creativevixen: i’m in!
(guest): I’m in!
amanda (guest): i’m up for it
Guest281 (guest): I’m so in.
AdminErik: i’m sure between all of us, we can bring a client in.
Aparatchik (guest): heheh… I guess I’m not really needed with all you guys around!
deenile (guest): what would we name it?
AdminErik: apartchik..are you a recruiter?
aok (guest): we should start a group.. and take on all the crowdsourcing gigs on the web
Aparatchik (guest): yep yep!
JBCopeland: there’s plenty of clients looking for fresh teams and a different approach to their problems.
valerie (guest): The Animals! That would be a good name
Guest654 (guest): Hello everyone
ryan (guest): start it up
AdminErik: make sure you all have your bios/resumes up on beta.pleasefeedtheanimals.com
AdminErik: portfolio section coming soon
amanda (guest): we would make headlines
deenile (guest): when?
Guest654 (guest): I finished my M.A. in Integrated Marketing Communication last fall and have worked a few freelance gigs since graduating. I had an interview yesterday for a full-time Business Development job.
AdminErik: i need to reconnect with skookum. not sure exactly when.
deenile (guest): what a name skookum!
creativevixen: looking forward to the portfolio section
AdminErik: And we have our new biz person. Welcom, 654!
rebrivved: Hi all, I have a job posting I’d like to share. I’m not a recruiter. Just passing along a lead. Here it is: This copy manager position is with a specialty retail firm in the area – fashion oriented. The salary is 90,000 (I’ve already tried, unsuccessfully, to bump it up) and will supervise about 6 – 8 people. For more info, contact Kim Wachter kwachter@hollisterstaff.com
JBCopeland: Erik – can you remind us what the portfolio section will have in it?
Aparatchik (guest): Erik, with your recent exposure I’d be surprised if you couldn’t pull a client or two
Susan (guest): Just for creatives or can AE’s post resumes too?
Guest654 (guest): I got a call back yesterday for a 2nd interview and am wondering if anyone has any tips on preparing for a 2nd round interview. This will be with same HR person and guy in the hiring position now along with the Director
AdminErik: sure. it’s just a place all your print and broadcast work.
ryan (guest): 654- how did you find freelance biz development jobs? as an account service & brand strategist I am thinking about the freelance idea. (this is still on topic, right?)
AdminErik: ryan…
AdminErik: yes.
AdminErik: there’s such great opportunity in independent contracting.
ryan (guest): i’ve only been unemployed for 2 weeks, so i am still pulling my thoughts and portfolio together
AdminErik: so many clients need planners/strategists/creative teams. but they don’t an agency.
Guest654 (guest): my freelancing has been in creating marketing collateral and wordpress websites for small businesses….I have minor BD background with an internship I didnt in Account Service…I have no real BD experience, this is an entry level job I am interviewing for
deenile (guest): so what is the difference between independent contracting, consulting and freelancing?
AdminErik: potatoes, potahtoes
Guest654 (guest): none
ryan (guest): how does this work if you are not an AD. do you need a creative team to partner with or are agencies or others looking for the planners/strategists?
Guest654 (guest): what sounds better to the FT job you apply for!
Aparatchik (guest): ryan, it’s all on an as-need basis
AdminErik: ryan…you just form your own little mini-team.
deenile (guest): but doesn’t consulting sound better thanks freelancing when marketing oneself?
AdminErik: make connections…see if you can work together…then go get clients.
ryan (guest): erik: hmmm. that’s what i’m thinking.
Aparatchik (guest): creatives freelance, strategists consult… j/k
ryan (guest): thanks
Guest654 (guest): has anyone else used Aquent for freelance positions? They are a good resource. I have found 2 jobs through them…they are free as well
AdminErik: okay…peeling bloody tp off my nose.
Aparatchik (guest): classy!
deenile (guest): ouch!
creativevixen: the impression i’ve gotten (this may be wrong) is that “consultant” became code for “unemployed.” of course, that may be true of “freelance” too
AdminErik: i think bleeding stopped.
creativevixen: good job on the nose repair!
AdminErik: haha
AdminErik: good chat.
AdminErik: thanks for logging in everyone.
Aparatchik (guest): if you’re recently been laid off you can elegantly bridge the gap on your resume with a ‘freelance’ section… no one needs to know that you’re only working 10-25% of the time
AdminErik: Lemonade will be done by the end of the month.
SurfJunki: yay!
AdminErik: Released early next month. Somehow, some way.
billy_ivey: Can’t wait for Lemonade…
creativevixen: that’s great!
deenile (guest): thanks all
ryan (guest): thank you
Aparatchik (guest): ty
creativevixen: thanks guys
aok (guest): thanks
AdminErik: I’ll post the transcripts in a few.
AdminErik: from this chat.
Aparatchik (guest): meeting time
SurfJunki: thanks E for hosting. i’ll be in touch ~amanda
JBCopeland: yep – thanks for putting this together Erik
AdminErik: Great group today. Hope to do it again next week. But I can never tell until a day or two before whether or not I’ll have a conflict.
billy_ivey: OK.. Good chat. Still unemplo… Um… freelancing, but good chat anyway.
AdminErik: CONSULTING!
billy_ivey: crap.
AdminErik: remember that.
AdminErik: haha
valerie (guest): Your own boss!
deenile (guest): CEO
creativevixen: working from home
AdminErik: peace.
2 Comments
I just want to comment on the part about getting hired in another city. If you’re not quite ready to move there without a job, another alternative is to plan a trip there for a few days. When I was an in-house recruiter, if someone wrote me & said they’d be in town for certain dates, and I liked their work (that part is critical), then I would make a point to meet with them.
Yes, there’s a lot of talent in NYC, but if you’ve got a strong portfolio, agencies will want to meet you. They just don’t want it to be complicated. Make it easy for them by being in the city on your own for a meeting. Giving them specific dates will also hopefully get them to respond because there’s a perceived deadline.
So pick some dates, don’t buy the ticket until you’ve got some interest, so you’re not throwing your money away, maybe choose a time when there’s an event going on for additional networking. Then contact a bunch of places and when you’ve got at least 2 meetings set up (or however many make you feel it’s worth it), & book your ticket. Of course, this is all a juggling act because you don’t want to go broke on plane fare. And if you can stay on friends’ couches, all the better.
Any new business people on this transcript? Email me, please. Thanks.
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