AdminErik: Hi all.
spacemanspiff: howdy
AdminErik: Let’s give people a few minutes to show up.
AdminErik: I love spacemanspiff.
AdminErik: My son does, especially.
AdminErik: Looks like my main announcement vehicle is down.
spacemanspiff: one of my favorite fictional characters.
AdminErik: Twitter not working so good.
AdminErik: Once again, I come to you with questions rather than answers. I thought it was about time we discussed crowdsourcing as it pertains to us in (and self) employed adfolk.
AdminErik: Not inemployed. Unemployed.
AdminErik: Did people here happen to read my post yesterday? http://www.pleasefeedtheanimals.com/2009/10/19/does-this-crowd-want-to-be-sourced/
AdminErik: I’ve had a couple of organizations approach me about leveraging the talent here on PFTA.
Guest548 (guest): like who Erik? Reputable?
AdminErik: I’ve typically kept them at arm’s length. But the popularity of crowdspring and the like made me want to open it up to you guys.
AdminErik: Agencies mostly.
spacemanspiff: Could you elaborate on that,what do they really want besides a talented labor pool on the cheap? Would it possibly lead to employement?
Guest548 (guest): I think agencies tapping into the talent here is great. Workng like a dog for no $, not so much.
AdminErik: I think they share my hesitation. I don’t know if there’s a model that really works. We’d literally be defining it.
AdminErik: Right.
AdminErik: 548 – that’s what I’m trying to avoid.
Guest548 (guest): If some kind of structure could be formed, might work.
AdminErik: One thought is to give clients direct access to talent for project work and have them pay a subscription fee for that access.
spacemanspiff: to PFTA?
AdminErik: but it wouldn’t be the traditional “i need a logo and i have $100. Who’s in?”
Guest548 (guest): The best crowd sourcing I’ve seen maintains a strategic direction and a certain quality of work.
AdminErik: yes. i don’t even know if crowdsourcing is the right word for what we’d be interested in.
AdminErik: spiff – yes. they’d pay the subscrition fee to PFTA and then would pay you for the work directly.
AdminErik: okay…here’s one example…
Guest548 (guest): interesting… would they look at portfolios, pick a group of us and then give us an assignment to hash out?
AdminErik: I was just asked by a client if I knew anyone who could help them design their holiday card. They have $1000 total. What would be the best way to get that in front of the Animals?
Guest753 (guest): ask…it never hurts. if someone feels like it, they’re in. if not, nothing lost.
AdminErik: 548 – that’s one idea. again, nobody has the answers. we’re trying to define it as we go.
kikikarpus: I’d be weary of any agency trying to do this. Kind of like taking Cripin’s lead
AdminErik: because, honestly, i’m with everyone here. there’s no way i want to spend 40-50 hours of work with even a small chance i won’t get reimbursed.
talkingmonkey: Do what you do, E. Tweet. And post guidelines on PFTA.
spacemanspiff: Ok, running with that idea, PFTA would have a “work board” and they could post job specs / budget. But someone made a valid point on your CS post about the competition for the job being a major factor.
AdminErik: ah, but the guidelines are the rub.
AdminErik: yeah, spiff. i don’t like that part.
Bernie (guest): I think the 1K eg could really undercut the freelance market. I get that its just an idea. But I think we have to be careful.
AdminErik: yet, it’s all the rage these days. i’m allowing for the possibility that other people might be okay with it.
AdminErik: and i don’t want to say no to something if people would be into it.
Bernie (guest): And I get that we all need work. I just hate that I see a ton of undercutting going on. For instance, a designer in my community is charging 30/hour. And he’s got 8 yrs of exp.
AdminErik: gross, right?
Guest753 (guest): it’s tough not to when you lose the work at your usual rate. part of the problem is with agencies. they want more for less.
AdminErik: so, what do we do about it? i mean, if he’s any good, you can’t then charge $75/hr and expect to compete with him/her.
AdminErik: it’s pretty much what the whole book “Free” is based on.
Bernie (guest): Exactly! I was offered a blogging job for $10/post. Now that is ridiculous!
AdminErik: we could fight the good fight until we’re obsolete. or we could find a way to turn this to our advantage. i just don’t know what that way is yet.
Guest548 (guest): that’s my major worry, I didn’t work for almost 20 years in this business gaining expertise and know how for a chance to maybe make $30 an hour.
spacemanspiff: what if there was some sort of blind system where once the client chooses an anonymous submission they are locked in at that persons price range/structure
kikikarpus: Could you establish the agency budget before hand? Not have people undercutting each other?
spacemanspiff: thats a rough idea
AdminErik: kinda cool spiff
AdminErik: kind of like a blind auction.
Guest753 (guest): i like.
AdminErik: here’s my book. here’s my proposal.
spacemanspiff: yep
Guest753 (guest): as long as you don’t have other submissions putting in the time without compensation.
Guest548 (guest): but wouldn’t that lead to us undercutting ourselves?
spacemanspiff: so why not limit the submissions
spacemanspiff: first come first serve?
creativevixen: i like the idea of limiting the submissions. allow fewer the less money is involved?
spacemanspiff: i like that.the ratio to budget/ submissions would need to be worked out tho.
AdminErik: well, the way to limit the submissions is to have the client choose from the pool of talent.
Guest753 (guest): maybe the client pays a flat fee, and if they use your submission, you get the rest. if they don’t like it, they pay the flat fee for someone else’s, etc.
kikikarpus: why not have online work samples and have the agency pick 3 people to work on it and then pick their favorite?
creativevixen: Erik, could you do a small upcharge to the client so you get a little something out of it too?
AdminErik: something like that
Guest548 (guest): why couldn’t they just hire a team of us (just like at an agency to attack a brief at a smaller rate-per hour to hash it out and the winner gets a big “bonus?
AdminErik: again…blank slate here.
AdminErik: 548…that’s another option.
spacemanspiff: 548 how do we go about “making” those teams?
AdminErik: some clients will pay a “pitch fee” to the competing agencies so they’re not SOL if they don’t get it.
AdminErik: spiff- i’m in discussions with a creative resources manager about that very thing.
Guest548 (guest): does the agency pick among our portfolios? or do we submit… not sure
AdminErik: some people are natual partners…worked together before. know each other online…etc.
AdminErik: they could present as a team.
Guest548 (guest): yup, I have go-to people.
AdminErik: mini agencies, if you will.
Guest753 (guest): 548…make them pick upfront. that way nothing’s lost.
Guest548 (guest): yes, now there’s the future
AdminErik: there are chemistry issues to consider, of course.
Guest753 (guest): sounds strawberryfrogish…
kikikarpus: no it sounds campbell-ewaldish
Guest910 (guest): strawberryfrogish? they roll that way?
Guest548 (guest): mini agencies are nimble, agencies could come herre to hand-pick teams for the project they need help with.
Guest753 (guest): just the part about bring teams together from all over
AdminErik: sfrog operates mostly on a contract basis.
AdminErik: very few full timers
creativevixen: do the contractors work remotely?
AdminErik: but they do have a few big clients for which they are AOR.
AdminErik: sometimes.
AdminErik: vixen..you mean at sfrog?
creativevixen: yes, at sfrog. and i guess if we were following their lead, for us too.
Guest548 (guest): I just did a project for a major client that was all freelancers. Called in the peeps we needed and then disbanded when we were done.
Guest548 (guest): and got paid for our time 
spacemanspiff: We could meld the blind auction idea with the team idea. Some sort of hybrid.
AdminErik: vixen…i’ve done quite a bit of work for sfrog in the past. they are an agency that has (i’m guessing here) 10 or so staffers. but at any given time there are 40 more freelancers roaming around.
Guest743 (guest): The virtual agency concept is big b/c its cost effective.
Guest548 (guest): great for agency to just pull in what/who they need, when they need them.
scottperezfox: I’m suspicious of any agency that has more freelancers than staff. Shows a cultural void. They may get a project done, but they’re not going to be influential in the industry.
AdminErik: right. clients can almost always use a creative team and a project manager. but they usually don’t need an agency.
AdminErik: perezfox…that’s the downside.
creativevixen: spiff, how about auctioning off teams instead of individuals?
Guest753 (guest): it would be cool to have the entire virtual agency employed full-time.
Guest548 (guest): My old agency said they were all about the culture…till they weren’t.
AdminErik: however, i’m not one who believes very much in culture at the workplace, anyway.
AdminErik: it’s all manufactured.
Guest548 (guest): agreed.
Guest910 (guest): im currently a permalancer
spacemanspiff: I’m all for that idea, but I guess i would have to get onboard a team.
Guest910 (guest): i dont know how i feel about it, im just happy to be working at all right now
Bernie (guest): I like the idea of culture. But the only culture I’ve seen is a sweat shop.
AdminErik: so, back to this client who has $1000 to spend on a christmas card. any suggestions about what i should do with that?
creativevixen: check out portfolios, see you think is a good fit, and assign it?
scottperezfox: agency culture is the little things: lunch together, bringing in a new magazine, chatting about new Apple products, etc.
Guest548 (guest): I love the idea for them fishing for teams here as it’s pretty hard to find the freelance the other way around..
scottperezfox: for Christmas cards, you have to create something that people physically keep around. Invest in paper and printing techniques.
scottperezfox: make your clients keep it as a reference, something they’ll show off as a cool artifact.
Guest753 (guest): it would be nice too, if we could see each other’s books, and meet new folks to team up with here.
Guest548 (guest): 753- yes
AdminErik: i was thinking about using it as a crowdsourcing experiment of sorts. but i wouldn’t want people giving away ideas to get there.
spacemanspiff: @753 i agree
AdminErik: that’s in the cards
creativevixen: 753, agreed. it’s not the culture so much, but the interaction that’s important in a real-life job. i miss that, sitting on the couch in my pjs with my laptop
AdminErik: 753
Guest753 (guest): ?
AdminErik: sorry…i meant that access to portfolios is in the cards.
Guest753 (guest): right on
AdminErik: next round of beta.pleasefeedtheanimals.com
Guest753 (guest): gamma
AdminErik: haha
AdminErik: nic
AdminErik: e
AdminErik: maybe i’ll call it that.
AdminErik: i’m digging the blind auction idea for crowdsourced projects
spacemanspiff: ok so then lets refine it.
bernie (guest): blind auction: what if after the client discovers the $, they don’t want to pay for it?
bernie (guest): you could charge a back out fee, that you could keep for pfta or split b/w the members.
spacemanspiff: once they choose they would have to be locked in i guess
spacemanspiff: or what bernie said
bernie (guest): so then everyone needs a paypal acct?
AdminErik: step 1: client reviews teams and narrows down to, say, three. step 2: those three teams put in their best bids. step 3: client awards job and deals with teams directly.
creativevixen: down payment once a team is assigned. pay the rest upon delivery
bernie (guest): don’t you think client will chose the lowest bidder?
Guest548 (guest): I worry about blind auction… again, us under-bidding
spacemanspiff: its blind
Guest753 (guest): pfta could mediate and make sure it’s a reasonable #
bernie (guest): maybe you sent a standard.
AdminErik: well, sure. underbidding is always a concern.
AdminErik: but perhaps that could be the written rule of the Animals. A code, if you will.
spacemanspiff: Well we could hope folks here aren’t cut-throat enough to do that
AdminErik: It becomes a fair practice standard.
Guest548 (guest): But isn’t there already a site doing that model for freelance and they notoriously bid very small $$
spacemanspiff: we could set a minimum
AdminErik: i think we eliminate a majority of the underbidding concerns by having the client pick 3 teams before knowing what they’d charge.
bernie (guest): there are several sites that allow creatives to bid on work.
talkingmonkey: Perhaps you ask the client for a range. A high and a low.
Guest548 (guest): also, everyone should have different rates per experience level-
scottperezfox: agencies, no matter how unconventional, must answer the same basic question: where do clients come from?
AdminErik: hundreds or thousands of creatives will try to undercut the next guy. but 3 or 4 would be competitive.
scottperezfox: is there a queue of clients somewhere I don’t know about?
Guest753 (guest): yes, there is a site already doing it. can’t remember the name, but they don’t do teams, and they don’t limit submissions.
bernie (guest): geography also sets rates too. cost of living is diff.
AdminErik: perezfox…they’re coming to me bc of the talent pool on PFTA.
Guest548 (guest): it’s awful.
scottperezfox: shit. There you go.
AdminErik: and i’m trying to leverage the fact that we have all this great available talent and would like to connect everyone with projects somehow.
bernie (guest): maybe your diff could be team-based creative. the oth site (can’t remember name) is solo work.
AdminErik: there are lots in both camps, bernie
Guest753 (guest): it’s called openpitch.com
AdminErik: behance is a great team-based site.
bernie (guest): ok. so that doesn’t work.
AdminErik: it might.
Guest548 (guest): I still think it’s best for the agency to post and assignment (say for a car client) and have people present their relevent work (not $$ amount) and have the agency pick from among those depending on budget.
AdminErik: more than one service is good for competition.
bernie (guest): erik-is most of your talent senior level? maybe that’s your angle.
AdminErik: big mix
AdminErik: but, yes, a lot are senior talent.
Guest548 (guest): Then it would be ideal if those team members got paid a dollar amount for their time with a bump going to the winning creative(s)
carolt: erik they are coming to u cuz they want cheap labor.
AdminErik: good question
AdminErik: i think that might be a hidden agenda.
bernie (guest): erik-gotta run. thanks for the chat.
AdminErik: one agency flat out asked me to have people work for free until they sold the idea.
spacemanspiff: @carolt we don’t have to cheapen ourselves, the blind auction would ensure that they don’t just look for lowest bid.
Guest753 (guest): maybe you don’t wait for them. set something up the way you want to do it. price it well, and promote it.
carolt: u r right erik, there are lots in both camps. bernie and 548 are right. lots of sites doing this.
carolt: aren’t we all saying shops went FREE or cheap labor?
AdminErik: carolt- i don’t know. not all of them.
AdminErik: the one place i talked to yesterday, they genuinely want to create a partnership that works for everyone.
spacemanspiff: I would hope it the idea that they are after, if they are merely interested in the cheapest why would we want to work with them
carolt: we all know too many good people who are working for cheap.
Guest753 (guest): or not at all…
AdminErik: we had a very open dialogue about how to make that a reality. but didn’t come to any conclusive answers. that’s why i’m opening it up here.
JBCopeland: Here’s a thought – maybe a question… I think this community of talented folks needs to show how talented we are
Guest548 (guest): carolt, lots of people I know have drilled down their rate to get work. I wonder if it ever goes back up after the recessions over??
carolt: don’t we give agencies too much already, for FREE or cheap?
carolt: we are hurting ourselves.
spacemanspiff: So are we in favor of CS, and if so lets find a model that works.
Guest548 (guest): JBCopeland- god idea
Guest548 (guest): meant good
Guest753 (guest): i say you have them look at a team’s work, pick the team, and they’re locked in.
AdminErik: exactly. we can define it.
JBCopeland: how can/should an agency see how valuable our past ideas have been? likely the portfolio section of the site?
talkingmonkey: Crowd sourcing = the client needs at least a round of thoughts or teasing at a direction. Perhaps that’s where the bidding begins. A best-thinking pool is created by the client. Blow outs due in next round. Tiered payment for winner and runner ups?
Guest753 (guest): I like the tiered thing
talkingmonkey: That’s how a creative director might manage thinking internally.
Guest548 (guest): that makes sense to me-
AdminErik: talkingmonkey – let’s take that crispin/brammo thing as an example. how much cooler would it have been if they paid 10 designers $1000 to submit ideas, then the “winner” got $10k.
JBCopeland: i also believe that everyone would approach this idea of crowd sourcing differently. Everyone has their own motives: some want a better book. Some want money. Some want more diverse client experience.
spacemanspiff: A scenario: Client posts a job with budget of 4500. Ten teams enter, client picks three, and then picks from those three with, the two runners up receiving something
creativevixen: tiered payments sound great. that way no one works for free, but there’s a reward for getting your idea picked
AdminErik: that’s an identity for 20k…still pretty cheap.
AdminErik: but not realistic.
AdminErik: right. a pitch fee.
Guest548 (guest): Yes Erik
Guest753 (guest): JBCopeland…it’s about the book here. that’s what we have to differentiate with.
Guest548 (guest): the book, not $$
spacemanspiff: I like the idea of tiered payments,the client would have to factor in the cost of pay out to several teams, and you are compensated for your time.
AdminErik: i think we’re all just sniffing the crowdsource ass to see if there’s a way for it to make sense. but i do know one thing: it’s happening whether we join in or not. we have an opportunity here to shape where it goes.
Guest548 (guest): me too, I think it can work if shaped right
AdminErik: the only potential issue with tiered is that the reasons clients would be interested at all is to lower costs. if every tier makes it more expensive, they would just go to an agency.
Guest753 (guest): just like we said there should be fair practices to keep creatives from undercutting each other, there should be fp for keeping the clients from doing it
Guest548 (guest): not if they are not having to pay the yearly fee that covers all the overhead etc. that they don’t need
AdminErik: i don’t have an issue with undercutting if it’s three people against each other instead of 500.
JBCopeland: true Erik. Cost, and efficiency. Projects can likely get done with less layers.
talkingmonkey: Agreed. Crowd sourcing is here to stay. You can’t beat it, because clients like it. Something for nothing. What’s not to like. But if we can use it to take some of the mystery out of paying for good creative, maybe there’s a way to embrace it. Clients just want a taste before they buy. It just makes sense.
AdminErik: those three people are trying to make a living. they’re hand-picked by the client. so you’ll try to give a good price without low balling.
Guest548 (guest): the efficiency will save the client money in the end, big time
Guest753 (guest): something like that, Erik
AdminErik: there’s something here. we’re just circling it at the moment.
AdminErik: just a few minutes left. anyone have any questions about PFTA or lemonade or anything?
Guest548 (guest): I’d like to be part of working the crowd-sourcing thing out. Could be a very cool thing to say we’re a part of.
AdminErik: agreed
AdminErik: jbcopeland, you still there?
Guest548 (guest): gotta sign off Erik. Thanks-
AdminErik: for now, keep posting comments on the blog.
spacemanspiff: Would it be possible for more junior positions to be posted, because I am not as senior as most of you are, but also would like a job.
talkingmonkey: E. One last thing. They don’t pay for it…the DON’T own it.
AdminErik: http://www.pleasefeedtheanimals.com/2009/10/19/does-this-crowd-want-to-be-sourced/
Guest548 (guest): will do-
JBCopeland: still here
creativevixen: i assume this wouldn’t be tiny companies with $500 marketing budgets we’d be working with though. they’d have to expect to fork out some real cash for this work, but know they’d be paying less than at an agency
JBCopeland: chat’s not working well today for me.
AdminErik: is this thing on
spacemanspiff: i’m seeing everything ya’ll are typing
Guest548 (guest): Talkingmonkey’s VERY right on that. We own our work till it’s paid for
talkingmonkey: Working a little wonky on my end, too. Had to reset several times.
spacemanspiff: Are we ending at 4?
Guest548 (guest): I’m out- bye all
talkingmonkey: Cheers everyone. Nice chat.
AdminErik: yes.
carolt: got kicked out a few times.
AdminErik: intellectual property is ours until paid for.
Guest753 (guest): cheers.
spacemanspiff: Erik did you see what i said about junior positions?
AdminErik: i did
carolt: doesn’t seem to be working very well. think parts of convo are missing on my end.
AdminErik: unfortunately, juniors are the easiest to fill.
carolt: others having the same prob?
AdminErik: yeah
spacemanspiff: Right. Makes sense
AdminErik: chatroll gets finicky sometimes
AdminErik: alright everyone…keep the chat going on the blog:
AdminErik: http://www.pleasefeedtheanimals.com/2009/10/19/does-this-crowd-want-to-be-sourced/
carolt: might need to get an upgrade.
AdminErik: carolt…it’s like crowdsourcing. you get what you pay for.
carolt: this whole convo is crowdsourcing btw. hehe.
AdminErik: on that note….
talkingmonkey: lol.
AdminErik: until next time.
carolt: lol erik
JBCopeland: sounds good. thanks for hosting erik.
AdminErik: you’re very welcome.
AdminErik: cheers.
spacemanspiff: take care all
carolt: erik is crowdsourcing us. maybe we should charge him BIG $$$$$.
carolt: hehe erik.
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